[Broadcast on 18 April 2006]

In 1998, local governments in Henan Province carried out road constructions at the village level, which was known as the "Cuncun Tong" project. In order to make achievements in their careers, many local officials ignored farmers' ability to raise funds and the government's financial ability to carry out the project. At that time, the government encouraged people who had the ability to raise funds, whether they were government officials or normal citizens, to raise funds and undertake the "Cuncun Tong" road construction project through their own channels and methods. Then under the principle of "the people who benefit are the ones who pay", town and township governments will levy the construction fee amongst the villagers. However, later, the central government cancelled the agriculture tax, but did not allow town and township governments to collect any other types of fees apart from basic taxes from farmers. Consequently, town and township governments could not afford to pay the construction fees. Those who found different ways to raise funds and undertook projects were left with enormous debts they cannot repay. In 1998, Dong Shengjun, deputy director of Water Conservancy Bureau in Xiayi county, gathered funds from relatives and workers in the Water Conservancy Bureau to undertake the road construction projects of three towns and townships. To date, he has accumulated a sum of more than 4 million yuan debt which he has no way to repay. Today and for the next few weeks, I will broadcast my conversations with Dong Shengjun:

Han: So the problem hasn't been solved all along?

Dong: A bit has been solved, because the National People's Congress Plenary Session has recently been held in Beijing. My family members went to Beijing to petition and returned yesterday morning as they were being forced by county government officials to come back.

Han: So did people from the county government go to Beijing?

Dong: There were many people from the county government who went.

Han: That was during the National People's Congress Plenary Session?

Dong: Yes. County leaders are staying there!

Han: So they stay in Beijing to specifically tackle such petitions?

Dong: Yes.

Han: Were there a lot of people from your county who petitioned in Beijing?

Dong: Only counting the people involved in debts from this construction project, there are more than 20.

Han: Were there others?

Dong: There were a lot, like other debts, occupied lands. There were a lot of people involved in those.

Han: Were they all forced to come back?

Dong: All were forced to come back.

Han: So your family was also forced to come back yesterday?

Dong: Yes.

Han: Can you introduce a bit about which year you started doing this?

Dong: This involved the policy at that time. At that time, the village level built primary schools, the township level built secondary schools and the county level built senior high schools. The people who benefit are the ones who bear the burden. Moreover, soldiers helping to pave the road for the "Cuncun Tong" project also follow the same principle.

Han: Does "Cuncun Tong" mean every village has to have roads?

Dong: Yes.

Han: Is it asphalt roads, or dirt roads?

Don: Asphalt roads.

Han: Which level of government policy was the project "Cuncun Tong" in your area?

Dong: It's the provincial level. In 1998, the Henan provincial government came out with a "Cuncun Tong" document. At that time, as the deputy director of the Water Conservancy Bureau in Xiayi county, I was mainly in charge of laid-off formerly state-owned enterprise workers (xiagang gongren). [We] did not have enough money for food. Then a few people said: "The "Cuncun Tong" project is carrying out. You can try to find somebody to carry out this project. Then you will gain from it. Moreover, these people can earn a salary. You will also benefit personally". So the policy at that time can allow us to deposit a sum to build asphalt roads, and the sum can be reimbursed at a later time.

Han: Who were the people who encouraged you to build roads in the beginning?

Dong: Our laid-off formerly SOE workers discussed together that if somebody can lead everyone (to work together), then there will be benefits later! We'll have food and salary!

Han: That is to say that the laid-off workers from the Water Conservancy Bureau in your county and you pooled together and they let you lead this "Cuncun Tong" project?

Dong: Yes.

Han: That is to say after they were laid off, they hope that they will have food and will be able to benefit from this project?

Dong: Yes.

Han: And the government happened to have such a policy?

Dong: Yes.

Han: So at first you decided to come forward to do this?

Dong: Yes, but once I did this, the whole project expanded, so our laid-off workers, some relatives and friends came to help us by donating money for the project.

Han: At the beginning, was there any interest in borrowing money?

Dong: Yes, an interest of 20 percent. At that time, it was considered a high interest loan.

Han: At first did you decide who was going to pay this interest?

Dong: I'm paying it myself!

Han: Where would you get the money to pay the interest?

Dong: It's from the benefits we gained from this project.

Han: That is, after undertaking this "Cuncun Tong" project, you're using money the government paid you for the interest?

Dong: Yes.

Han: Then you can also enjoy some of the benefits?

Dong: Yes.

Han: How many laid off workers from the Water Conservancy Bureau are involved?

Dong: Currently there are over 20 people.

Han: Over 20 people lent money? And is the borrowed sum kept with you?

Dong: Yes.

Han: How much did you borrow at that time?

Dong: The Water Conservancy Bureau lent us over 2 million yuan. My relatives and friends lent me another sum of over 2 million yuan. Practically, I owe others a sum of over 4 million yuan. Including interest, this sums up to 10 million yuan.

Han: At first you raised a sum of over 4 million yuan. How long was the road built?

Dong: Over 200km.

Han: Was it one township's, or was it several townships'?

Dong: It was 3 townships', and also the county government's.

Han: Which three townships?

Dong: The Matou town, the Jiyang town, the Zhongfeng township.

Han: Which year was it?

Dong: It was 1998, 1999 and 2000.

Han: So this project continued for three years?

Dong: Yes.

Han: Which month of 1998 did you start building?

Dong: From March 1998 to November 2000.

Han: During the process, the government did not give you a single penny?

Dong: During the process of construction, the government gave us some money. During the process of construction in the Matou town, it gave us 200,000 yuan, the salaries of farmers come up to over 300,000 yuan. At that time, we practically solved about 200,000 yuan.

Han: At the beginning of this project before you started, was there any agreement between you and the government?

Dong: There was an agreement.

Han: Which level of government did you sign this agreement with?

Dong: It was with the township governments.

Han: That is these few township governments?

Dong: Yes

Han: What did the agreement say?

Dong: The agreement was "the deposit is to be repaid in three years, starting from this year when construction begins", that is, from 1998 they start to repay 30%, in 1999, 30% and in 2000, 40%. These are all agreed on the contract.

Han: On the contract, were there any specific numbers written down?

Dong: Yes.

Han: For example, how much money for the Matou town project?

Dong: Over 2.2 million yuan.

Han: And the other two?

Dong: They cost even more. The whole batch of project costs nearly 12 million yuan.

Han: Is it how it is written on the agreement?

Dong: Of course. There is an agreement for each batch and for each road.

Han: Which town's road construction project cost 12 million yuan?

Dong: Jiyang town.

Han: How about the other township?

Dong: The agreements on the Zhongfeng township road project were made in 1998 and 1999. On the agreements, one is 870,000 yuan and the other is about 1.1 million yuan.

Han: So from the agreements, the total building cost should be about 1.7 to 1.8 million yuan?

Dong: Yes. Now, in the end, I still owe others over 4 million yuan. Because my project was carried out in 1998, 1999 and 2000, lasting for 3 years, I invested in the project all the money they gave me along the way. Like the Jiyang town, after I started working, in spring, a few kilometers were built, they gave me part of the money; in autumn, I built another 8km or so, they gave me another part; in 1999, I built another over 10km, they kept paying me. In 2000, I kept working on it and they kept paying me.

Han: So take the Jiyang town as an example, the building cost is over 10 million yuan. Did you build the roads up to the distance written on the contract at the beginning?

Dong: Yes.

Han: How many kilometres?

Dong: 27km for the Jiyang town in three years.

Han: This is what you agreed on the contract at the beginning to complete for them?

Dong: Yes.

Han: It's all completed?

Dong: Yes.

Han: At first, the building cost for the Jiyang town was over 12 million yuan?

Dong: The sum was over 10 million yuan. In October the year before, they owe me 6.745 million yuan. Now, during the Lunar New Year, they gave me 10,000 to 20,000 yuan. That's it.

Han: They didn't refuse to pay, did they?

Dong: In this industry, who will refuse to pay?!

Next Thursday evening at the same time, please continue to listen to my conversation with Dong Shengjun, originally the deputy director of Water Conservancy Bureau in Xiayi county, Shangqiu city, in Henan province.