Talking to a Liaoyang trade union official

(Broadcast on 30 March, 2002)

At the beginning of March, Gong Shangwu, head of the local People’s Congress and former Mayor of Liaoyang city, Liaoning province, told the National People’s Congress in Beijing that there were only laid-off or sent home (xiagang) workers but no unemployed workers in Liaoyang. And for those who are unemployed, the city government could still guarantee them payment of 280 yuan living expenses a month.

The speech, which was broadcast on Liaoyang Television, immediately ignited the rage of the impoverished Liaoyang workers. From 11 March, over 10,000 workers from six major enterprises, including the Liaoyang Ferrous-Alloy Factory, participated in spontaneous street demonstrations demanding the city government make good of what Gong Shangwu said in his Beijing speech and immediately pay the workers’ salaries as well as the pension funds, year-end bonuses and medical funds owed to the workers by the enterprises. Furthermore they demanded Gong Shangwu resign unless he made good of all this.

On 17 March Liaoyang police secretly arrested Liaoyang Ferrous-Alloy Factory workers’ representative Yao Fuxin. On 18 March, the Liaoyang Ferrous-Alloy Factory workers went to the streets again to demand the release of the arrested worker’s representative and the police arrested three more workers’ representatives in the action.

I talked to a Liaoyang trade union official about what role the trade union should play after the workers’ rights had been damaged and the workers’ representatives had been arrested.

Han Dongfang:

Has the trade union contacted the government to free those people?

Official:

Ask the government complaint office about that, they have more precise information.

Han:

But now I would like to ask what the trade union did.

Official:

I am not sure about the details of what our trade union did.

Han:

So, who would know?

Official:

I’m not sure; I don’t know who would know about this problem.

Han:

But what s the role of the trade union when something like this happens?

Official:

I really don’t know, don’t ask me about this. I am just not sure.

Han:

Are you a trade union official?

Official:

No, I’m not.

Han:

To what department do you belong then?

Official:

I don’t belong to any unit; but who are you? Why are you calling here left and right? I have received a lot of calls from you, what do you want?

Han:

I just want to understand what the role our trade union is in this matter.

Official:

Under the present complicated situation, if you come here and talk face to face, that is all right.

Han:

What is so complicated about this situation? It’s just workers demonstrating for the release of……

Official:

If you know anyway, why are you asking us about it?

Han:

What I would like to ask is what role the trade union can play in this.

Official:

So, what do you say, what role should our trade union play in this?

Han:

That’s why I am asking you; is the role the union plays such a big secret?

Official:

It’s not a secret at all, but even so I can’t discuss it with just anyone.

Han:

Even if I am just an ordinary worker and I give you a call to enquire, you still should say a few words.

Official:

I have no obligation to talk to you, if you come and discuss it face to face, then we can talk.

Han:

Has the Legal Department of the Union offered legal service to the families of the worker’s representatives; for example represent (the families) and visit them in the detention centre?

Official:

We don’t really know how they got arrested, we are not clear about that either.

Han:

The trade union is the representative of the workers, so…

Official:

Would the police have to report to your trade union about the arrests?

Han:

If the police make unreasonable arrests, the trade union must intervene…

Official:

What is unreasonable? How do you know if they were unreasonable?

Han:

Well, did the trade union enquire if the arrests were reasonable?

Official:

I am not sure. You always call and ask these difficult questions, what am I supposed to reply?

Han:

Are these questions so difficult? It’s just about how the trade union represents the workers to defend the workers’ legal rights.

Official:

What could be done by the trade union has been done. What you are asking me about, would the police report to you how many people, whom and why they are arrested? Who’s going to tell you (trade union)?

Han:

I remember that at the time of the big February 7 railway strike, that…

Official:

When was that February 7 railway strike?

Han:

During the Guomindang rule.

Official:

So, what is the era now?

Han:

Now, it’s the Communist Party….

Official:

Exactly, it is the Communist Party, not the Guomindang.

Han:

But even the Guomindang…

Official:

Do you believe Jiang Zemin?

Han:

During the rule of the Guomindang, the lawyers of the trade union all went to enquire, how come that under the Communist Party it’s not possible?

Official:

How do you know that (the arrests) were unreasonable?

Han:

So the trade union did go to enquire, right?

Official:

Would the police report to the trade union about arrests? Would the city party committee ask the union for instructions? The union is under the leadership of the party.

Han:

I didn’t say the city party committee would ask the union for instructions; I asked if the union represented the workers and enquire with the police about the arrests.

Official:

Oh, do you mean this government and city committee did something wrong?

Han:

I just asked if the union enquired.

Official:

Surely they enquired, how can they not enquire.

Han:

So what did the government say?

Official:

I don’t know, I didn’t participate.

Han:

Well, I tell you that during the big February 7 strike, even the barrister, She Yang, went to enquire on behalf of Lin Xiangqian.

Official:

You cannot compare, how can that time be the same as under the Communist Party? Am I right? It is not the same. Apart from that, the union upholds this right, that’s for sure; we have to play this role. But these recent developments, why they arrested people, what it is all about… these things…well…we just don’t know for sure.

Han:

I still don’t quite understand. This is really simple, during the February 7 strikes under the rule of the Guomindang the lawyer She Yang was able to go and enquire about the circumstances of Lin Xiangqian’s arrest; today, under the Communist Party, why can’t the union go and enquire about the circumstances of Yao Fuxin’s and Pang Qingxiang’s arrest?

Official:

What’s their name, these two? One is Yao and one is Pang, right?

Han:

You don’t know their names?

Official:

I don’t know.

Han:

Then I tell you.

Official:

Don’t tell me, there is no point in telling me, what do you want? Tell me the truth, what do you want?

Han:

I would like to understand the union’s role in the country’s reforms of state-owned enterprises. For example the February 7 incident, which I just brought up, isn’t that an obvious comparison?

Official:

You can’t look at it this way; it is too extreme; you can’t look at things like that. That time and now is not the same. You cannot simply say that they are right to demonstrate in front of the city government, and arresting them is wrong. There are some things, of which you cannot immediately say if they are right or wrong. You say that the union should stand up like at the time of the February 7 strike…They were already demonstrating in front of the government before the arrests were made.

Han:

But isn’t it right that arresting them won’t solve the problem?

Official:

We are not getting anywhere discussing this problem. I tell you, just try to understand the nature of the Chinese trade union, and it will be fine. According to the policies of the party and the city government, we have to support the government and we have to support the workers, right? We have to support both, right?

Han:

Well, now that there is a contradiction between the government and the workers, whom do you support?

Official:

Whom to support? You cannot merely talk about whom to support, you cannot say that the government arrested the workers, so the government is wrong and the workers are right; you cannot simply say that. The problem is much more complicated.

Han:

But arresting people will exacerbate the conflict; that's for sure, isn’t it?

Official:

I can’t tell if arresting people will exacerbate the conflict.

Han:

But isn’t it true that arresting people will not solve the problem?

Official:

Neither the papers reported, nor the police or the government told us whether people got arrested or not, if they were arrested or detained or what. I suggest you call the government complaint bureau, or call the phone number of the Mayor, 12345, talk to them about these questions, ask them if arresting people will exacerbate the conflict.

Han:

Why can’t they let those people go and then they could all sit down and discuss the problems? Why do they want to force the workers onto the streets?

Official:

The way you see it is too extreme.

Han:

Why?

Official:

I think your point of view is not right; can this problem be that simple?

Han:

Whichever way, can’t they first free the arrested workers?

Official:

Does your word count? Does my word count? If we say arrest them will they arrest them? And if we say free them, will they free them?

Han:

The words of neither of us count, but now…

Official:

Do you believe in the government?

Han:

Sometimes I can’t.

Official:

Sometimes you can’t? When can’t you?

Han:

When they break their word.

Official:

When did the government break their word?

Han:

On the 11th and 12th the government public security bureau said they would not make any arrests.

Official:

Didn’t this have some prerequisites?

Han:

What prerequisites?

Official:

Tell me, why did they want to make arrests? Why did they want to break their word? How did the government break their word?

Han:

On Sunday they arrested a worker.

Official:

Which Sunday?

Han:

On the 17th.

Official:

On the 17th?

Han:

Yes, on the 17th they arrested a worker’s representative. The government broke their word. The on Monday, the 18th, the workers held street demonstrations and they arrested three more workers’ representatives. The government is getting tougher and tougher; isn’t this exacerbating the conflict?

Official:

The government has also devised different ways to alleviate this conflict. They created employment opportunities to these Ferrous-Alloy Factory workers; they created jobs for them. Only today, they created jobs and work conditions for them in the Ferrous-Alloy Factory Club.

Han:

But this is not an excuse to arrest people!

Official:

I cannot understand why you only want to discuss these arrests.

Han:

To arrest someone is very serious, don’t you think? Indiscriminate arrests violate people’s rights.

Official:

Look, as I said, the best is to go to the government office 12345 to understand these circumstances and see what they say. The phone number of the Mayor’s office is 12345.

Han:

What is your name?

Official:

You don’t need to ask for my name. If you call, I will certainly be the one to pick up the phone.

Han:

You will definitely pick up the phone? (Laugh)

Official:

Yes. (Laugh)

Han:

Okay, then.

Official:

If you want to come over, we can meet and have a chat.

Han:

Okay, thank you.